PCT help

[thegad Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close thegad]

Its been awhile since i was last on here so i will go through my cycle and then ask questions.

My cycle started mid nov. I ran 500mg of test E for 12 weeks. My gains were great for anyone wondering. I put on just at 30lbs and the only sides i seen was random back pumps.

For my question, I was wondering when should i start my PCT? How much nolv and clomid should i run a week and how long should i run it? I was thinking i should start PCT today. My last inj was last wednesday the 16th.

[stumpy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close stumpy]

I think answers are going to vary from person to person. IMO start in at 10 days after last jab at 60mg for first day, 40mg next 2 or 3 days then stick at 20mg ED. Were you taking any antiE during cycle?
Something else to take note.............(can't remember the authers name):

TAMOXIFEN'S DARK SIDE
While the initial findings of tamoxifen's role in breast cancer treatment seemed so promising, as with so many of the synthetic hormone drugs, further research presented grave concerns for its widespread use. In fact, the MIMS Annual lists 25 adverse reactions to tamoxifen: some of l these can be fatal.


Eye Damage
According to a 1978 study in Cancer Treatment Reports and another published in Cancer in 1992, about six per cent of women taking even low-dose tamoxifen suffer damage to the retina and corneal opacities and decreased visual acuity. Irreversible corneal and retinal changes can occur in those taking 20 mg. of tamoxifen twice a day (twice the usual dose). These changes may have no immediate effect on visual acuity, but may predispose the eyes to later problems including cataracts.


Blood Clots
Tamoxifen irritates the walls of the veins, and inflammation (a natural healing response to irritation) follows. The constant irritation and inflammation weakens the veins, causing bleeding, clotting, thrombophlebitis and, in the worst cases, obstruction of the blood vessels serving the lungs, which can be deadly and can occur with little warning. The incidence of thrombophlebitis in women using oral contraceptives is generally regarded as significant (1 in 2,000); however, with tamoxifen it's 30 times greater."

Several studies, including one reported to the FDA's Oncological Drugs Advisory Committee by the National Surgical Adjuvant Breast and Bowel Project in 1991, showed that the risk of developing life-threatening blood clots increases about seven times in women taking tamoxifen. (6)


Psychological Symptoms
Depression has been reported as a potential side-effect of tamoxifen in 30 per cent of women. Cases have been reported of an inability to concentrate.

It is important that patients observe their moods and mental states. If it is suspected at tamoxifen is causing depression or lack of concentration, it is suggested that a period of tamoxifen avoidance be considered.


Other Symptoms
Tamoxifen can trigger asthma attacks in some sensitive patients.

Changes to the vocal cords resulting in impairment of singing and speaking abilities are occasionally caused by tamoxifen.


CARCINOGENENIC EFFECTS
It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

In California there is a law called "Proposition 65" that requires the state to publish and maintain a list of all known carcinogens. In May 1995, the state's Carcinogen Identification Committee voted unanimously to add tamoxifen to its list.

Following suit, in 1996 the World Health Organization formally designated tamoxifen a human carcinogen, grouping it with 70 other chemicals ? about one quarter of them pharmaceuticals ? that have received this dubious distinction.
Cont...


Liver Cancer and Liver Disease
Tamoxifen is toxic to the liver, and there have been reports of acute hepatitis in patients treated with tamoxifen. Liver damage has occurred in every animal given tamoxifen. According to Gary Williams, medical director of the American Heart Foundation, tamoxifen has been shown in animal studies to be a "rip-roaring" liver carcinogen, inducing highly aggressive cancers in about 12 per cent of rats. (7)

The latest human studies show a six-fold increase in liver cancer among women taking tamoxifen for more than two years." Liver failure and tamoxifen-induced hepatitis, although rare, have been reported. Even Zeneca admits that tamoxifen is a liver carcinogen ? while nevertheless aggressively promoting its use.


Heart Disease and Osteoporosis
Another promise of tamoxifen was its supposed protective benefits for the heart and bones. It was theorized that its estrogenic properties would help reduce heart disease and osteoporosis in women, but once again the theory crumbled under the weight of hard facts.

Several trials with tamoxifen failed to show that it has any effect on bone density and thus on prevention of osteoporosis. In three other trials, bone density increased slightly in lower spinal vertebrae but not in longer bones or hip bones which are particularly susceptible to fractures and potentially fatal complications.

Initial data seemed to indicate that it decreased the incidence of heart attacks, but they have been disproved by more recent studies. According to Dr. Susan Love: "It doesn't seem to have a bad effect on lipids, but that's a far cry from preventing heart attacks."

A detailed review of the drug's alleged protective cardiovascular effects prompted the British National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, a once strong proponent of tamoxifen, to withdraw its support because the evidence of benefit proved so inadequate. (25)

According to the January 1996 issue of The Network News, it was reported at a closed-door meeting of the National Cancer Institute that tamoxifen failed to prevent heart disease in breast cancer patients.


THE BREAST CANCER PREVENTION TRIAL
Based far more on wishful thinking than on science, the U.S. National Cancer Institute (NCI) leaped to the conclusion that tamoxifen's anti-estrogenic effects in relation to breast cancer treatment meant that the drug would prevent breast cancer from developing in healthy women.

Disregarding all the research implicating tamoxifen with serious and potentially fatal side-effects, the NCI launched a US$60 million breast cancer prevention trial in April 1992, aiming to recruit 16,000 healthy women in the United States, Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Still ongoing, the trial now involves 13,000 healthy women over the age of 35 who are considered at high risk. Australia has recruited 1,350 women, with a target of 2,500. For five years, half the women receive tamoxifen and half receive a placebo. The drug is supplied free of charge by manufacturer Zeneca.

Dr. Samuel Epstein, Professor Environmental Medicine at the University of Illinois School of Public Health and author of The Breast Cancer Prevention Program, raises serious concerns. "Unfortunately, this misguided and dangerous approach to prevention stems from the entrenched fixation of the NCI on the use of chemical drugs to prevent cancer which may have been induced by chemical pollutants, medical technology (such as radiation from X-rays) and carcinogenic/estrogenic drugs in the first place. Instead of attempting to reduce the carcinogenic chemical burden under which we struggle to maintain our health, the NCI believes that the solution is to add more chemicals to the mix."

Dr. Susan Love concurs: "It is a sad state of affairs when we have to add yet more chemicals to counteract the effects of other chemicals."

This attitude extends to the way the NCI treats the women in the trial. They are given no guidance on alternative protective measures such as increasing exercise, maintaining a healthy weight, eating a protective diet and avoiding exposure to environmental carcinogens; nor are they being fully informed about the serious risks of tamoxifen.

Dr. Lynette Dumble, Senior Research Fellow in History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne, believes that the global trial to prevent breast cancer with tamoxifen is a modern and very large chapter of "medical imperialism". Back in October 1994 she commented on ABC TV's Quantum science program that the tamoxifen trial was the medical equivalent of mutilating surgery which prevents a woman from developing breast cancer by cutting off both her breasts.

Dr. Dumble sees women as vulnerable guinea pigs for the trial, and questions both the breast cancer risk of healthy women volunteering for the trial (how can you tell whether fate or tamoxifen prevents a woman from developing breast cancer?) and the terms of the trial's positives and negatives (if a woman dies of tamoxifen-related endometrial or liver cancer, does this count as a tamoxifen success in preventing breast cancer?).

It seems absurd, but why would the powers-that-be continue to promote a trial that promises to substitute one cancer for another in otherwise healthy women? Once again, healthy women are targeted as the guinea pigs for a drug treatment that has already been proven to be a cause of a variety of cancers including breast cancer. In the case of tamoxifen, medical research has once again taken a back seat to profits. It is the population that is at risk. The cancer establishment would certainly be eager to prove a tamoxifen-prevention role, since it would then open up another huge, billion-dollar market.


It is widely believed that today's drugs are tomorrow's poisons. In the case of tamoxifen, tomorrow has already arrived.

Edit: The dosages we use are unlikely to be near enough to the dosages talked about in the quote above.

[thegad Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close thegad]

Yes i was taking tamoxifen 25mg every 2 days. I started that about halfway through the cycle.

[graffix Banned Find all posts View Profile Close graffix]

Everything has a potential for side efffects though. Too much of anythings not good. I've always. Seen the guys saying 40 40 20 20. Also I've read a post by ronnyt I believe that says aromasin along side nolva ia actually best for u... says good cholestrol etc... check it out in ais pct.

[SAFELIFE1 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SAFELIFE1]

No different than A/S sides

I think answers are going to vary from person to person. IMO start in at 10 days after last jab at 60mg for first day, 40mg next 2 or 3 days then stick at 20mg ED. Were you taking any antiE during cycle?
Something else to take note.............(can't remember the authers name):


Edit: The dosages we use are unlikely to be near enough to the dosages talked about in the quote above.

[limo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close limo]

I think most of the guys on here would agree with me when I ask did you run any blood work to see if you've shut down your natural production?? If you haven't I would wait and run some blood work to see if you need a PCT after such a short cycle. You may find yourself already back to normal but you won't know the answer without proper blood work