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RonnyT
03-23-2011, 07:07 AM
On some boards ther are hot debates about the counterfeiting subject of some products.
Then especially Norma Testosterone enanthate. On some forums we see pictures comparing real-fake. In Poland and on RBB. We showed one too, but this one had some serious deviations.

What concerns most is the length and form of the neck and the (very) sloppy closure.

I show a picture from one of the boards, one of our members p.m-ed me with the question for my opinion.

I think a good fillingline should be able to deliver nicely shaped necks with the same length and a nice bold top. In a good pharmaceutical invirorment those ampoulles would be removed, either by the operator or later at the visual inspection. I don't know if Norma works with a contracter. I'll try to find out.

goanywhere
03-23-2011, 11:40 AM
Another great Job. Thanks Ronny.

JuicedUK
03-23-2011, 01:56 PM
Your the man on fake/legit gear. Glad we got you here.

ab2
03-24-2011, 10:44 AM
Very sloopy filling line.
Be interesting what you turn up through your contacts.
Thanks for all your good work.

RonnyT
03-24-2011, 12:18 PM
The filling happens at Famar A.B.E. factoryA. On their website they show they newest equipment. I mailed the GM from Norma - Famar and my wholesaler. All greek guys thus it can take awhile ;-)

sam1976
03-24-2011, 01:33 PM
Your the man on fake/legit gear. Glad we got you here.

agree! he knows his stuff.

1500
03-27-2011, 02:14 PM
cool. when dealing with melting and forming glass will always have some sort of deviation although those deviations are quite large.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS37gV0DGn0&feature=related

RonnyT
03-27-2011, 02:26 PM
I received this p.m.
Hey Ronny I appreciate all your help with all the members here. I think this board is going to be the #1 board with all the great info on spotting fakes which is a HUGE issue lately. I was wondering if you ever saw my post started by BigMatt addressing his concern with norma deca with closed 4's. All these amps (the questionable norma test and deca) both came from that new source XXXX. He claims he gets products from a friend of his who has a pharmacy company and came legally import any type of medication...not just anaboiics.

XXXX sent me free samples of all his products and they all looked good. Then when I placed an order, I noticed the amps were slightly off. For example, when he sent me a sample of norma deca it had the open 4. Then when I ordered 50 of them, they all had the closed 4. The strange thing was everything matched perfectly with both normas. Both of them had the uv watermark on the box, each box had different # on the sticker, both had norma logo and stars on the label, and both had exp date 2 yrs later. Is it possible that norma uses open and closed 4s? The vials were made 1 month from each other. I have always heard the closed 4s were fake but if you look at both the versions I got, I cannot tell a single difference. Do you think the closed 4s that XXXX posted are counterfeit?

Those pics of norma test that you just posted varied in height and had bad sealing job came from XXXX as well. The problem is he posted pics of stacks of cases of factory boxes his products come in trying to prove that his business partner is buying direct from the factory. Do you think all this is a bunch of bullshit? You think the counterfeits are actually counterfeiting the factory cases as well? A case of iranian test has like 2,250 amps in there. Thanks for all your input. I really think you are the #1 guy in this community for helping everybody stay away from bunk gear and shady sources. I appreciate all your help.

Like I said I mailed a few guys and hope they will answer. Look at these leaflets, those show that Norma has the filling/packaging done by a contract manufacturer. As you can see in the text they have more then one manufacturingplant. That is why small deviations can occur

Judge
03-27-2011, 05:49 PM
yes they do the manufacturing in FAMAR industries located in Alimos Attica, a suburb near Piraeus.

limo
03-27-2011, 06:27 PM
Thats why there are differences in the amps, different contractors...That would be addressed by someone in quality control if the company in question had a quality control department. This is very good information to have when trying to identify possble fake products. With so many UGL'S now out there you can no longer say look the amps are different heights so they are fake or look the label is a little off, these can are happening and the products are still containing the ingredients you paid for...Thnks Ronny

ab2
03-27-2011, 06:58 PM
yes they do the manufacturing in FAMAR industries located in Alimos Attica, a suburb near Piraeus.

FAMAR gives details on the production capabilities on all it's manufacturing plants.
http://www.famar.gr/our-sites/locations/

It appears from it's capabilities at each Famar location that all Norma Hellas products are manufactured from a single plant in Alimos as referenced by 'JUDGE'.
http://www.famar.gr/our-sites/locations/presence/?prsid=3

joebig
03-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Ok well I guess it is possible those norma are legit then but my only question is, with a company with such strict quality control as Norma Hellas, would they really let another contractor produce amps for them that varied so much in height and shape?

limo
03-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Well i guess the answer is yes

ab2
03-27-2011, 11:22 PM
I've read the leaflets posted by Ronny a couple of times.
The way I read it is *both* the Norma Test and Norma Deca are produced/manufactured by Famar ABE for Norma Hellas S.A.
It would appear that Famar only have one manufacturing plant capable of producing the Norma products and that is located in Alimos, Greece.

The section 1.7 highlighted on the leaflet, labeled Marketing Authorization Holder, Norma Hellas S.A. and their address is just telling us who has the license.

If I'm reading it wrong I'm happy to be put right:)

joebig
03-28-2011, 01:45 AM
Very interesting. Ronny, you are the man! So maybe that would explain why that guy Big Matt who received norma deca that looked 100% legit except for the fact that he had closed 4s in his batch # could easily really have real Norma that were made by another one of the contractors. Maybe one uses open 4s and the other uses closed 4s. I compared his norma deca to mine which had the open 4s and both are identical. I know mine are real so that would mean his are as well, unless their are some damn near perfect fakes that have the norma logo with stars on the label, uv watermark on the box, and different #s on the sticker on the box.

dino
03-28-2011, 05:01 AM
Two thoughts(just thoughts im not saying that some is fake or someone is selling fake): i had in my hands perfect copies of Deca Norma's vial except from the batch number/exp date, photo of the factory boxes means nothing, i've posted photos of Winstrol Desma Lote B029 with factory box, W.Llewellyn claims is fake on february's issue of Muscular Development...it's more simple to fake factory boxes than vial/amp/label but you seems more legit if you give to the customer the impression of a direct contact with the producer...

joebig
03-30-2011, 03:37 PM
Just to clarify, I was not talking about the factory boxes, I was talking about the factory cases the boxes come in. For example, there are 458 boxes inside a factory case of iranian test. Some sources have pics of the factory cases. I was just saying that if a source has pics of the factory cases, it is more believable they are actually buying direct from the factory.

RonnyT
03-30-2011, 04:51 PM
true, thats why most forums don't allow pics of amounts of gear that are not for personal use.

In the last box a note with the name of a member to show him I do know where I'm talking about. Boxes are not mine of course, but belong to a friend.

joebig
03-30-2011, 10:03 PM
Damn I wanna jump right into each one of those boxes. So Ronny, just to clarify, do you think those norma deca posted by Big Matt that had the closed 4 instead of an open 4 are genuine products from Norma? Could the reason one of them has a closed 4 is because one of the different contracted plants use open 4 and one uses closed 4?

dino
03-31-2011, 04:32 AM
Just to clarify, I was not talking about the factory boxes, I was talking about the factory cases the boxes come in. For example, there are 458 boxes inside a factory case of iranian test. Some sources have pics of the factory cases. I was just saying that if a source has pics of the factory cases, it is more believable they are actually buying direct from the factory.

I was talking about what you call factory cases: it's more simple to fake them and like you said it's more easy to believe that a boxes of 3 winny is legit if it's inside a 156 items factory case. This is the factory case of Winstrol Desma (W.Llewellyn on the february's issue of Muscular Development says it's fake,Lote B029). At the moment i haven't seen it tested but i repeat that is very easy to fake a factory case it's just carton and some stamped paper. Of course i'm not saying that the Ronny's magic boxes are fake....:)

joebig
03-31-2011, 05:10 AM
Ya I see what you are saying. Was there ever a real batch B029 ever made by Desma? If so, those factory cases could be the real thing from the real batch B029. Counterfeiters usually use batch #s from real batches so it looks more legit. So there could be real B029 and some counterfeit B029 that William got ahold of that were fake.

RonnyT
03-31-2011, 10:05 AM
William has no real items and has no contacts with the counterfeiters. He based his knowledge on the posting of a spanish website. The package and amps shows differences just like the vials. I have both packs on that website listed as real/fake in my collection (I keep a sample from the shipments to be able to compare) This particular number B029 was delivered by Desma. Dino got areal box

RonnyT
03-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Even the colour of the leaflet and karton is different, but the leaflet lists the Madrid factory as manfacturing place for both samples . That doesn't mean the boxes are printed the same day. Its obvious they don't mind a few deviations. The holograms on both boxes give the same colour spectrum under the light.

I attached a pic that shows the differences better on real/fake with the hologram. We analysed one counterfeit and received an other directly from Bulgaria.

To be honest I followed the common idea that the B 029 was counterfeit until I decided to check out more thorough today.

Bacteria and analyses http://juicedmuscle.com/showthread.php?214-Desma

dino
03-31-2011, 01:16 PM
William has no real items and has no contacts with the counterfeiters. He based his knowledge on the posting of a spanish website. The package and amps shows differences just like the vials. I have both packs on that website listed as real/fake in my collection (I keep a sample from the shipments to be able to compare) This particular number B029 was delivered by Desma. Dino got areal box

Thanks Ronny. I must say that a lot of people used that LoteB029 via injection and got no issue. But i'm always suspicious, even if who knows tell me it's ok...:) thanks again Ronny. If you need a sample of it: ask me! ( i was talking to Ronny...:D )

ab2
03-31-2011, 02:01 PM
On the original issue of the Norma Test amps.

I have seen several references to more than one contractor.
Does anyone have any evidence that Norma products are produced anywhere other than at the Famar manufacturing plant in Alimos?
Do Norma themselves do any manufacturing of either Test E or Deca?

ab2
03-31-2011, 02:13 PM
Very interesting. Ronny, you are the man! So maybe that would explain why that guy Big Matt who received norma deca that looked 100% legit except for the fact that he had closed 4s in his batch # could easily really have real Norma that were made by another one of the contractors. Maybe one uses open 4s and the other uses closed 4s. I compared his norma deca to mine which had the open 4s and both are identical. I know mine are real so that would mean his are as well, unless their are some damn near perfect fakes that have the norma logo with stars on the label, uv watermark on the box, and different #s on the sticker on the box.

I think Joebig's question on if any closed 4's have been found on known Real Norma deca is still valid.

ab2
03-31-2011, 02:21 PM
I've been thinking about the motivation for the counterfeiter to produce factory outer boxes.
Clearly they would be easy enough to produce.
One thought is if they are moving large quantities of medications across country borders.
Could the extra effort required in producing factory outer boxes help them pass through customs without alerting extra suspicion (at least between some countries)?

goanywhere
03-31-2011, 04:23 PM
As always - great job Ronny. I wonder what the ratio is in total of counterfeit/fake vs bona fide gear overall?

RonnyT
04-01-2011, 11:04 AM
That depends on your source or country. Research in a very libeate country like the Nethrlands still comes on an average of 60%.
* Quality of illegal doping substances – an exploration of the quality of illegally traded doping substances and the health risks that accompany their use 2005, O. de Hon & R. van Kleij

The Dutch study covers four years and involves the analyses performed on 203 products that where seized at the arrest of dealers or became available through other channels of the Dutch inspection for public health, during the period between 2000-2003 and were analysed for the presence of active ingredients as claimed on the label. The study contains a total of 336 products that were analysed. Beside the products from the period between 2000-2003 the NeCeDo study made a comparison with the results of 98 analyses from 1998 performed by the NIDDR (Netherlands Institute for Drugs and Doping Research in Utrecht)
They completed the study with extra analyses to the quality on eight products that where bought on the internet in the year 2004 and to the uniformity of ten counterfeited means that required 27 analyses.

RonnyT
04-01-2011, 11:08 AM
A couterfeiter usualy uses an existing lotnumber. Maybe there are counterfeits with that lotnumber, I wouldn't be surprised. But the differences, in this case, where real.

joebig
04-01-2011, 02:31 PM
Hey Ronny where you referring to the desma winny? I would like to know your opinion on those norma deca with the closed 4 instead of the open 4. Do you think they are real norma deca? Thanks

joebig
04-04-2011, 06:51 AM
Ok I found some proof that there are legit norma deca with closed 4. Here is a link to a guy from BOS who got it straight from the pharmacy off a Dr script.
http://www.bodyofscience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8168

1500
04-04-2011, 02:41 PM
I hate to think of all the people that may have shitted on their sources based soley on a closed or open 4, but with everything else the way it was supposed to be.